Occupy

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dave mothersole's picture
#61
Tue, 25/10/2011 - 00:01
pastinaca wrote:
Mr Hanson wrote:
I do sympathise with a lot of people on the demos, esp if you're young, unemployed, and hoodwinked by society into thinking university offered a guaranteed future - those guys who camped out in Spain for months obviously weren't doing it for fun, but I think they're all delusional if they think it will achieve anything, and my fear is that middle class voters wary of instability, will now all give the rightwing PP a landslide, in which case, the demos will have proved a total disaster.


No they won't. The 15M demos aren't about propping up the Socialist government, or advocating a more left-wing alternative. They are deliberately staying away from engagement with the the political system in its present form.
I spent a night at our local camp in June, another two ferrying food and blankets to my missus and the rest while I looked after the kid. I spent a day at the camp in Sol in June, and have been on most of the marches in the last year. For an old leftie it's been a bit of an eye-opener.
The first thing you realise is that this is something very different to a normal sit-in or political demo. It's a protest against the current political system (which is sewn up between two parties in Spain, the US, the UK and pretty much everywhere else), it's against corruption and against the financial orthodoxy that is being imposed globally. That's why the movement itself is has received support globally, not just in Wall Street and London, but with Chilean studfent protests, the March on Brussels and plenty of other things you won't see in the press.
I don't know where it'll end, but I do know that the Spanish protests have already started crystallising into local pressure groups that tend to fight battles on their own turf - the 'back to the barrios' movement.
In Spain, the results can be seen in that politicians now feel it necessary to publish their wealth and income, and the universal outcry when Zapatero and Rajoy changed the constituion at a penstroke last month.
There's also plenty of discussion of "alternative systems of localised economies and enterprises and thinking of new ways of generating wealth and land-use", at least at the demos I've been on, although they tend to use words like 'jobs' and 'a decent living' rather than 'wealth'.
what the movement will develop into I don't know, but I do know that it's been one of the most exciting developments in politics I've been involved in, and the goodwill is huge - I was looking at the Daily Mail's coverage of the London protest and even their readers are right behind any movement that attacks the banks.

The main success that the banks, the corporations and the politicians who happily to dance to their tune have had is convincing people that there is no alternative to the type of capitalism they offer.



great post.
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#62
Tue, 25/10/2011 - 00:15
Interesting thread. Sad to read some of the desillusioned comments but i must admit that i am not too far from that mindset at times. I do feel though that the current system just isn´t working, there are too many losers, not even the so called middle class is safe. Like someone else said i think that the local thing, providing housing, healthcare, education and so on in your community is the way forward. As i see it a more local welfare system hasn´t really been tried yet and who knows it might work even though it´s not going to be effective. The scandinavian social-democratic state model went the same way as any other controlling state system, it got corrupted, too bureaucratic and therefor ineffective. But what we have now (here in sweden) is much worse, the right wing kept the bad sides of that system which is basically too much control of everything but dropped the good parts which was some kind of security. I support the occupy movement, i don´t know what´s gonna come out of it but i feel that all opposition is welcome.

/K
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RD's picture
#63
Tue, 25/10/2011 - 13:59
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RD
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#64
Tue, 25/10/2011 - 14:25
the solution is in the structure.
the structure however is protected by systems & rules that both alienate & hinder the majority.

a secondary structure needs to be built which incorporates & benefits those who loose out in the primary structure.

if resilient enough the secondary structure will thrive & survive.

this structure tho needs some genius & co-operative builders & architects.

the internet seems to be an obvious conduit through which this structures stability could flow.

most people i know including myself are running around infuriated with the structures that surround & control us. i have kind of circumnavigated them for most of my life (don't ask how:-) but as i get older & the structure becomes more rigid that becomes harder.

a soft surruptitious slavery of sorts

i know it sounds airy fairy & maybe i'm pipe dreaming.......but i see a chink in the armoured walls
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Martin Red's picture
#65
Tue, 25/10/2011 - 15:20
Investigative reporter Ellen Schultz talks about how corporations deliberately deceived their employees and Congress to profit from workers' pensions.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo.../ellen-schultz
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RD's picture
#66
Tue, 25/10/2011 - 16:38
Martin Red wrote:
Investigative reporter Ellen Schultz talks about how corporations deliberately deceived their employees and Congress to profit from workers' pensions.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo.../ellen-schultz


error 404

or such
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Martin Red's picture
#67
Tue, 25/10/2011 - 19:16
RD wrote:
Martin Red wrote:
Investigative reporter Ellen Schultz talks about how corporations deliberately deceived their employees and Congress to profit from workers' pensions.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo.../ellen-schultz


error 404

or such


The error code on this one is quite funny: http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-october-17-2011-ellen-schultz

4oD: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/4od
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tokyomatt's picture
#68
Wed, 26/10/2011 - 02:31
If you can't beat them join them.

I wondered how long this might take to happen...

Activists set up hedge fund

Good on them, obviously people within the industry and this kind of action will get noticed a whole lot more than stopping people going to work in the street.

Disillusional?
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aciddave's picture
#69
Wed, 26/10/2011 - 07:27
mikuni wrote:
If you can't beat them join them.

I wondered how long this might take to happen...

Activists set up hedge fund

Good on them, obviously people within the industry and this kind of action will get noticed a whole lot more than stopping people going to work in the street.

Disillusional?


interesting, but do companies need a lift, tumbling their share price? Either way the CEO's are sitting pretty with fat pay and pension, while the modest salary folk and investor takes the fall. It doesn't solve the 2% problem but does point a finger, which can only be a good thing.

It's a shame the modest salary folk's conditioning, aligns them with the rich and powerful because in the Western world they're the most vulnerable right now.
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tokyomatt's picture
#70
Wed, 26/10/2011 - 08:00
There's a very interesting business theory going round at the moment about whether firms really need a CEO. It is quite an interesting read. It covers what you actually get in terms of the money they earn, what effect do they really have on large organizations, then questions whether they have any effect on the bottom line and then highlights that they will always take a huge slice when the company does well, but will use a bottom up approach when the firm hits the skids. It is a bit 'tell us what we don't know' but interesting to see these MBA mafia theories being discussed at the MBA factories like Harvard and Chicago.

Anyway, occupy the street?
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#71
Wed, 26/10/2011 - 08:01
MBA schools response - The MBA Oath Laughing out loud
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lurkster (not verified)
#72
Thu, 27/10/2011 - 10:04
The Euro Leaders have sorted it all out, everyone relax. Storm in a teacup...

Hat
lurkster (not verified)
#73
Thu, 27/10/2011 - 10:53
mikuni wrote:
If you can't beat them join them.

I wondered how long this might take to happen...

Activists set up hedge fund

Good on them, obviously people within the industry and this kind of action will get noticed a whole lot more than stopping people going to work in the street.

Disillusional?


huh ? so this is going to "get noticed a whole lot more" than the global occupy movement ? are you sure ?

as for "stopping people going to work" , are you also against the forthcoming Public Sector strikes in the UK that might dovetail into "occupy" ?
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pastinaca's picture
#74
Thu, 27/10/2011 - 10:58
lurkster wrote:
The Euro Leaders have sorted it all out, everyone relax. Storm in a teacup...

Hat


Yay! I'm going to go out and buy a house to celebrate.
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#75
Thu, 27/10/2011 - 11:31
l blissett wrote:
are you also against the forthcoming Public Sector strikes in the UK that might dovetail into "occupy" ?



In principle I'm not against the strikes, but losing pay when it's hard enough to make ends meet with mouths to feed is not a prospect I relish. I'll have to see whether the NASUWT change their policy on strike action and deal with the consequences. Frankly, I've got about as much faith in unions and their leaders as I have in politicains though; whilst they talk loud about serving those they are supposed to represent, they are just as self-serving as our career politicains.
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lurkster (not verified)
#76
Thu, 27/10/2011 - 13:03
pastinaca wrote:
lurkster wrote:
The Euro Leaders have sorted it all out, everyone relax. Storm in a teacup...

Hat


Yay! I'm going to go out and buy a house to celebrate.



innit
lurkster (not verified)
ms mono's picture
#77
Thu, 27/10/2011 - 18:23
yes!!!!

ladyboygrimsby wrote:
Mr Hanson wrote:


I think the smart way to challenge the system is to try and ignore it best you can (through gritted teeth) and create an alternative system of localised economies and enterprises and thinking of new ways of generating wealth and land-use - these for me are the real and immediate challenges for now - I want to know what the growing industries are and where they are, that for me is much more urgent


How is this smart? It's fantastically dim. Ignoring governments and corrupt systems is the same as sticking your head in the sand while they legislate against you and in their favour. They have developed this way over the past twenty years precisely because there has been no focussed opposition.

Protest movements change things. It's not pie in the sky. It's fact. From the suffragettes to the Pentonville Five, doing something is better than doing nothing. We've had a generation of people who have meekly accepted what has been dealt out by successive governments simply because it's said there's no alternative. Anyone challenging that, however utopian their aims and ideals are, has to got to be a good thing.

Yours,
An old Marxist.

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ms mono's picture
#78
Thu, 27/10/2011 - 18:26
Steady M wrote:
l blissett wrote:
are you also against the forthcoming Public Sector strikes in the UK that might dovetail into "occupy" ?



In principle I'm not against the strikes, but losing pay when it's hard enough to make ends meet with mouths to feed is not a prospect I relish. I'll have to see whether the NASUWT change their policy on strike action and deal with the consequences. Frankly, I've got about as much faith in unions and their leaders as I have in politicains though; whilst they talk loud about serving those they are supposed to represent, they are just as self-serving as our career politicains.



A union is only ever as good as its membership. Lots of members are too busy/lazy/disinterested etc to make their union work for them. We've been totally fucked over at work, because they can. Elsewhere in the poublic sector at least there's a fight to keep pensions and basic rights.
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#79
Thu, 27/10/2011 - 21:07
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tokyomatt's picture
#80
Fri, 28/10/2011 - 04:01
l blissett wrote:
mikuni wrote:
If you can't beat them join them.

I wondered how long this might take to happen...

Activists set up hedge fund

Good on them, obviously people within the industry and this kind of action will get noticed a whole lot more than stopping people going to work in the street.

Disillusional?


huh ? so this is going to "get noticed a whole lot more" than the global occupy movement ? are you sure ?

as for "stopping people going to work" , are you also against the forthcoming Public Sector strikes in the UK that might dovetail into "occupy" ?



I'm not against the protests or the strikes, not that it effects me too much as I live in China. I'm just saying that if you're going to attack, or be heard by, the banks then you need to do it at their own game, which these guys are clearly doing with this activist hedge-fund.

I see China has weighed in with a few billion Euro in attempt to sort this out, lets see if it's enough to calm things down. I can't help thinking that it might just prolong the inevitable and that defaulting was the way to go.

Anyway, this all about Government spending, not banks as such.

Still - found this funny...

Quote:
The revolution is over! Thanks to one thieving Paisley ned..



A lone campaigner who brought a global protest against capitalism to a Scots town hall has abandoned his camp after being robbed.

Jimmy Kerr had pitched a tent outside Renfrewshire Council's headquarters in Paisley as his contribution to the Occupy Wall Street campaign.

But he was forced to give up the protest after a thug threatened to stab him before stealing his mobile phone and cash.

Jimmy, 36, said: "I was trying to get some sleep in the tent when this guy barged in and closed the zip behind him.

"He said he had a lock-knife and told me not to move, then he started rummaging through my stuff.

"He took my mobile and a few pounds in cash, then threatened to come and find me if I went to the police. After he left, I ran to the council offices and started shouting for help. But there was nobody there so I went up to my mum's house."

Jimmy, who is secretary of the Renfrewshire branch of the Scottish Socialist Party, said: "That's it over. I'm not going back there again.

"I'm going to get a friend to go and collect my stuff because I don't want to go back to the camp."

Jimmy hoped other people would join him in his makeshift protest camp.

But apart from the mugger, the only person who turned up was a man who dropped by on his way home from the pub and fell asleep in the tent.

Jimmy is furious at the council for implementing cuts which he said will cripple ordinary people.

He had hoped to stay in the tent until the Christmas lights switch-on ceremony in Paisley.

Jimmy had offered to flick the switch for free in protest at the council's decision to pay X Factor star Stacey Solomon £15,000 for the privilege.

Occupy Wall Street demos started near the financial district of New York and spread worldwide.

The UK's biggest camp has been set up next to St Paul's Cathedral.
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Ceol's picture
#81
Fri, 28/10/2011 - 18:00
A little video doing the rounds.

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hambo's picture
#82
Sat, 29/10/2011 - 10:55
Rather appropriate....

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Martin Red's picture
#83
Mon, 31/10/2011 - 19:39
As a kid, Halloween wasn't big here, it was all about burning an effigy of a Catholic on Guy Fawkes night/Bonfire night.

Now it's quite funny to see American Occupy protesters wearing Guy Fawkes masks, whilst England goes mad over Halloween.
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tokyomatt's picture
#84
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 06:30
Martin Red wrote:
As a kid, Halloween wasn't big here, it was all about burning an effigy of a Catholic on Guy Fawkes night/Bonfire night.

Now it's quite funny to see American Occupy protesters wearing Guy Fawkes masks, whilst England goes mad over Halloween.


I come from an old York family, people from York, even non-catholics can see the burning of a guy as burning one of there own old boys. My Dad is staunchly anti royalist as well. We never dressed the guy up as Guido Fawkes and on different years we burnt Thatcher, Tebbitt and in one year we had a J.R. Ewing repleat in a straw stetson picked up from a previous summer holiday in Tenerife.

The year we did 'penny for the guy' with the Thatcher doll we cleaned up Smile
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Martin Red's picture
#85
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 18:27
mikuni wrote:
Martin Red wrote:
As a kid, Halloween wasn't big here, it was all about burning an effigy of a Catholic on Guy Fawkes night/Bonfire night.

Now it's quite funny to see American Occupy protesters wearing Guy Fawkes masks, whilst England goes mad over Halloween.


I come from an old York family, people from York, even non-catholics can see the burning of a guy as burning one of there own old boys. My Dad is staunchly anti royalist as well. We never dressed the guy up as Guido Fawkes and on different years we burnt Thatcher, Tebbitt and in one year we had a J.R. Ewing repleat in a straw stetson picked up from a previous summer holiday in Tenerife.

The year we did 'penny for the guy' with the Thatcher doll we cleaned up Smile


Nice edge man Smile
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aciddave's picture
#86
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 20:20
ms mono wrote:
Steady M wrote:
l blissett wrote:
are you also against the forthcoming Public Sector strikes in the UK that might dovetail into "occupy" ?



In principle I'm not against the strikes, but losing pay when it's hard enough to make ends meet with mouths to feed is not a prospect I relish. I'll have to see whether the NASUWT change their policy on strike action and deal with the consequences. Frankly, I've got about as much faith in unions and their leaders as I have in politicains though; whilst they talk loud about serving those they are supposed to represent, they are just as self-serving as our career politicains.



A union is only ever as good as its membership. Lots of members are too busy/lazy/disinterested etc to make their union work for them. We've been totally fucked over at work, because they can. Elsewhere in the poublic sector at least there's a fight to keep pensions and basic rights.


the union at my firm turned itself into a JWP, without informing any reps or holding a ballot. It was signed off without members consultation. After a month half the reps became managers and not one solitary battle has been since won on behalf of the workers. The convenor is now a middle-manager and only has to raise his arm with management to pass a motion. Luckily the money i used to pay in subs, now goes to a employment solicitor every few years, who gets me better terms than my colleagues. It's not solidarity it's the harsh face of modern Britain and not much to do with being lazy but everything to do with misplaced trust. Most people are conditioned to accept and not to question, which is the real shame.
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#87
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 19:47
I've been quizzing my union about why my subs keep going up and getting a response is like getting blood out of a stone. When they do bother to respond their tone is that I am an annoyance.

The AGM is held in the swankiest hotel in town and the works is laid on. I know local reps who blow the annual budget before the end of the financial year on new PCs printers etc just to get the same funding the next year. And all this comes out of our subs that are going up once or twice a year. The hipocracy of it all makes me sick! Politicians you expect to shaft you, but the unions try and sell themselves as working in your favour when they're no better than the MPs - in fact they're worse due to their hipocracy!
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#88
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 20:37
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#89
Wed, 02/11/2011 - 19:10
here's a good talk about the whole thing....about 20mins long

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11961
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tokyomatt's picture
#90
Fri, 04/11/2011 - 03:41
The Occupists in Finsbury Park all look like they are going snow boarding or treking across south America. Media tent, Peruvian head gear, row after row of top quality arctic standard tents and all these smarmy fuckers making a shit tip for all the council workers to clean up after them, while they lecture about the iniquities of society. The bit I found amusing was them moving out of the way to let the council workers collect all their rubbish like gentry indulging their indentured labour.

Makes me laugh, that they can all clearly afford not to work - like Ms Toynbee who's just fucked off to her Tuscan retreat for a couple of months to ruminate on the evils of an unfair society.

The irony is lost on them as well.
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