Unlucky Ukraine. Why don't they just introduce goal line technology? It's a no-brainer. Failing that, maybe you get one 'challenge' per half, like they do in tennis, so you can stop the game and ask for a replay? We understand how it feels to be on the wrong end of one of those Pavel. It is not funny.
iamrobd wrote:
Good to hear that things are getting better. I predict that England will lose to France, draw against Sweden and beat Ukraine but still go out in the group stage.
One out of three ain't bad. Good job I am not a gambling man...
the matches are dull enough. Goal line technology would kill off what bit of drama we have left.
Once we win the tournament as spoilers (and we will), a new rule stating 'any team with more than 6 out-field players in their own half automatically concede a penalty', should be introduced to the not so great game.
Unlucky Ukraine. Why don't they just introduce goal line technology? It's a no-brainer. Failing that, maybe you get one 'challenge' per half, like they do in tennis, so you can stop the game and ask for a replay? We understand how it feels to be on the wrong end of one of those Pavel. It is not funny.
iamrobd wrote:
Good to hear that things are getting better. I predict that England will lose to France, draw against Sweden and beat Ukraine but still go out in the group stage.
One out of three ain't bad. Good job I am not a gambling man...
Can we beat Italy?
eeeerrrr - I think not if we play like we did against Ukraine. It was a bit scrappy in places and it seems like we've used all our luck up now for like another 10 years.
I actually think Italy look like the tastier team out of them and Spain at the moment. That may change, but still think zee Germans are gonna win it hands down.
England quarter final exit as per usual. No complaints about that, as Italy played much better football. I think Hodgson has done as well as could be expected with the available resources, possibly better than moody Capello would have managed, so no blame there. As usual, though, the English press and public will blame anything (manager, tactics, individual players, penalty shootout format etc.) rather than the one thing that will ensure our continual failure in tournaments, which is the way kids’ football is played in this country. I don’t know how many times people have to keep saying this before it sinks in. Having kids as young as 10 playing 11-a-side on full-size pitches (sometimes even with close to full-size goals) does not breed future international tournament winners.
It might be slightly different now, but I can remember playing right wing for the school aged 10 onwards on a full-size pitch. I didn’t learn much about intricate midfield interplay in a game plan that mainly involved being quicker and / or stronger than the opposition. OK, I could dribble a bit too, I guess. I remember one away game where we actually did play with full-size goals aged 11, so we just kept lobbing it over the 5 foot keeper into the goal, or hitting it towards the corners. Football masterclass. I think the score was 10-8 or something. Scoring directly from crosses was quite common. Still, it made you feel like you were possessed of Le Tissier-esque shooting genius. I didn’t even learn to head the ball properly because I was ordered never to come in more than 10 paces from the touchline unless I was the only person forward in an attack. Total Football it was not.
Would a young Xavi even get into a kids’ team here? (this question reflects on the merits of our youth football, not Xavi). He quite possibly wouldn’t even end up being a professional, as ludicrous as that sounds. His chief ability is one that has no place in our kids’ game, and lacking size, strength, speed or flashy ball skills, he’d probably be overlooked. But he runs things at the highest level.
“Playing to our strengths” as it is termed (i.e. the way we’re conditioned to play as kids) usually gets us beyond the group stages, but as soon as we come up against a team in form that can pass it around we get found out. Whilst it is possible for us to beat a team like Spain (as we did not so long ago), it’s usually as a result of being tight defensively, riding our luck a bit and stealing a goal from a set piece. Although possession isn’t everything (e.g. Holland, despite probably dominating possession in all 3 of their games, were shite in other respects, perhaps Sneijder aside), conceding more that 60% of it is not going to win you games on a regular basis, unless you are very good on the break, which in itself relies upon the other team opening up and over-committing, something that’s not usually going to happen with a well-organised midfield unless they’re chasing the game. The fact that Chelsea beat Barcelona and Bayern, despite being outplayed in both cases, should not be used as a vindication of the approach we are forced to adopt when playing technically better sides. It’s not a long-term strategy.
Not entirely original observations, I know, but worth repeating every time we fail, and every time people start talking about our need for one magical manager or a couple of magical players that will suddenly turn us into world-beaters. Those magical players won’t happen (aside from total one-off geniuses every 20 years or so) whilst we continue with our current development system, and a manager can’t make a team play a kind of football that they have never learnt to play. We also tend to think that an outstanding individual at club level will be able to have the same individual impact on a game at international level (e.g. Rooney), which is both unfair and deluded. Just because EPL teams are full of internationals doesn’t mean that the football played is of international tournament quality, regardless of "entertainment" levels.
Things might be slightly different now to when I was a kid 20-25 years ago, and I truly hope that they are. Not having kids myself, I have no recent experience of kids’ football. There is no reason why a country of 60 million people with a fondness for football cannot produce a world cup winning football team if the right development strategy is pursued
Well done Italy. Good luck against the Germans, who look pretty invincible at the moment.
*edit - despite all the above, England did still manage to score possibly the team goal of the tournament (Welbeck v Sweden), though admittedly against a very poor side.
Part me thinks England need to work on a game plan that accepts we wont have the ball for long periods, a la Mourinho, and go from there.
England luckiest team at the Euro's
Lucky to not get beat by France
Lucky to beat Sweden, basically Walcott won it, Wellbecks goal was a mistake, bounced of his foot.
Lucky to beat Ukraine - cross for the goal bounced off the first man, then off the keeper into Rooney's path
Lucky to not have to get mullered by Germany again
Part me thinks England need to work on a game plan that accepts we wont have the ball for long periods, a la Mourinho, and go from there.
That is our game plan, though. It's not a long-term strategy to win tournaments in the future, however.
Quote:
England luckiest team at the Euro's
Lucky to not get beat by France
Lucky to beat Sweden, basically Walcott won it, Wellbecks goal was a mistake, bounced of his foot.
Lucky to beat Ukraine - cross for the goal bounced off the first man, then off the keeper into Rooney's path
Lucky to not have to get mullered by Germany again
Welbeck's goal was the culmination of a fantastic move starting from our own penalty area; regardless of what you might think of the finish (which I feel was intentional), it wasn't luck that put the ball in a position to score from with a backheel. Credit where credit's due.
I agree about the rest, though. I don't think we were bad, we did as well as could be expected.
*edit- oh yeah, in some ways I hope Italy don't win, simply because if they do, it will give people the excuse of saying "But we went out to the eventual winners, so it's not so bad". The English are very good at deluding themselves thus.
England quarter final exit as per usual. No complaints about that, as Italy played much better football. I think Hodgson has done as well as could be expected with the available resources, possibly better than moody Capello would have managed, so no blame there. As usual, though, the English press and public will blame anything (manager, tactics, individual players, penalty shootout format etc.) rather than the one thing that will ensure our continual failure in tournaments, which is the way kids’ football is played in this country. I don’t know how many times people have to keep saying this before it sinks in. Having kids as young as 10 playing 11-a-side on full-size pitches (sometimes even with close to full-size goals) does not breed future international tournament winners.
It might be slightly different now, but I can remember playing right wing for the school aged 10 onwards on a full-size pitch. I didn’t learn much about intricate midfield interplay in a game plan that mainly involved being quicker and / or stronger than the opposition. OK, I could dribble a bit too, I guess. I remember one away game where we actually did play with full-size goals aged 11, so we just kept lobbing it over the 5 foot keeper into the goal, or hitting it towards the corners. Football masterclass. I think the score was 10-8 or something. Scoring directly from crosses was quite common. Still, it made you feel like you were possessed of Le Tissier-esque shooting genius. I didn’t even learn to head the ball properly because I was ordered never to come in more than 10 paces from the touchline unless I was the only person forward in an attack. Total Football it was not.
Would a young Xavi even get into a kids’ team here? (this question reflects on the merits of our youth football, not Xavi). He quite possibly wouldn’t even end up being a professional, as ludicrous as that sounds. His chief ability is one that has no place in our kids’ game, and lacking size, strength, speed or flashy ball skills, he’d probably be overlooked. But he runs things at the highest level.
“Playing to our strengths” as it is termed (i.e. the way we’re conditioned to play as kids) usually gets us beyond the group stages, but as soon as we come up against a team in form that can pass it around we get found out. Whilst it is possible for us to beat a team like Spain (as we did not so long ago), it’s usually as a result of being tight defensively, riding our luck a bit and stealing a goal from a set piece. Although possession isn’t everything (e.g. Holland, despite probably dominating possession in all 3 of their games, were shite in other respects, perhaps Sneijder aside), conceding more that 60% of it is not going to win you games on a regular basis, unless you are very good on the break, which in itself relies upon the other team opening up and over-committing, something that’s not usually going to happen with a well-organised midfield unless they’re chasing the game. The fact that Chelsea beat Barcelona and Bayern, despite being outplayed in both cases, should not be used as a vindication of the approach we are forced to adopt when playing technically better sides. It’s not a long-term strategy.
Not entirely original observations, I know, but worth repeating every time we fail, and every time people start talking about our need for one magical manager or a couple of magical players that will suddenly turn us into world-beaters. Those magical players won’t happen (aside from total one-off geniuses every 20 years or so) whilst we continue with our current development system, and a manager can’t make a team play a kind of football that they have never learnt to play. We also tend to think that an outstanding individual at club level will be able to have the same individual impact on a game at international level (e.g. Rooney), which is both unfair and deluded. Just because EPL teams are full of internationals doesn’t mean that the football played is of international tournament quality, regardless of "entertainment" levels.
Things might be slightly different now to when I was a kid 20-25 years ago, and I truly hope that they are. Not having kids myself, I have no recent experience of kids’ football. There is no reason why a country of 60 million people with a fondness for football cannot produce a world cup winning football team if the right development strategy is pursued
Well done Italy. Good luck against the Germans, who look pretty invincible at the moment.
*edit - despite all the above, England did still manage to score possibly the team goal of the tournament (Welbeck v Sweden), though admittedly against a very poor side.
England's deficiency is technical, its tactical & the players were no way near as sharp as the Italians fitness wise. The media/public talk about a shocking performance but when was the last time England produced a dominating display in a EC/WC game beyond the group stages?
Just to endorse your points - The Spanish kids are bought up playing futbol sala (5-aside but with a size 3 ball which is heavier) or 7-aside football on much smaller picthes (usually sand)..the game as a result involves far less space & the need to constantly look to pass/keep possession even if it means going round in circles.
I'd like to see no 11 a-aside allowed in this country until kids are 14/15 but can't see it ever happening. It's cultural. A lot of people can't stand so called tippy tappy & the Premiership with its money & foreign talent is considered the most exciting league in the world coz of the ping pong non stop attacking play - light years away from high level international football.
Things might be slightly different now to when I was a kid 20-25 years ago, and I truly hope that they are. Not having kids myself, I have no recent experience of kids’ football. There is no reason why a country of 60 million people with a fondness for football cannot produce a world cup winning football team if the right development strategy is pursued
having had the misfortune of watching my nephew (a short arse), struggle to make his school's b-team and bearing witness to the abuse from other child's parents he received when he lost possession AND the tolerance of this nonsense from teachers, i'm not surprised we're so lily livered and negative in tournaments.
In 1990 we gave Germany a game, whereas now we aren't fit to tie their laces. Our national team and their management are scared and who can blame them as they've been deprived of any collective enjoyment of the game throughout most of their lifetime.
Bomber Harris- yes, completely correct on both counts. When I was in Barcelona, I watched some of a local kids' game during my peregrinations, and it was as you describe (the players were about 10 years-old or so and playing 7-a-side). You can see how that leads to how the Spanish national team play. Ditto Brazil etc.... Juninho saying that he never kicked a size 5 ball till he was 14 etc... Futsal is undoubtedly the reason for the number of skilful Brazilian players.
Compare that with what Acid Dave relates... (shouting abuse at someone else's kid is inexcusable, btw, but even hyped-up enthusiasm isn't really conducive to getting kids to play good football). Another key point Dave raises here is that whilst the Spanish kids seemed to be enjoying themselves, we make sport into an ordeal for our children. My memories of playing kids' football (at least the 11-a-side school matches and training) are of joyless fitness drills, not being allowed to wear gloves in winter when it was snowing (despite the fact that my hands turn blue in the cold), hyper hyper competitiveness and win-at-all-costs mentality leading to (as you suggest) a total fear of making a mistake, and hence wanting to get rid of the ball as soon as possible if you were stuck in midfield. You only learn and improve by making mistakes. Ask any musician. People aren't born with genius-level ability, they acquire it through application and making a lot of mistakes along the way. I much preferred playing 5 or 6-a-side with friends (which was generally outside of school on a recreational basis) where I could make more use of my close skills and not worry about the consequences of the odd mistake or being stuck in a specific "role". I ended up hating 11-a-side in comparison. In this country we seem so hung up on making things arduous and unpleasant in the mistaken belief that this is "character building", whereas it in fact makes people lose interest. You need mental strength, but this comes from confidence in your abilities, not from some "bulldog spirit" nonsense. When we talk of sportsmen "breaking the spirit" of the opposition, it's a result of their superior skills, not some deluded self-belief. Anyway, rant over...
All this being the case, I have no real complaints about the England football team or manager as individuals, as they are the product of all the above. We would have lost to Italy no matter which formation, players or tactics we employed; when people focus on these things they merely refuse to engage with the real causes of our team's supposed "underperformance".
The importance of getting the ball in the box asap style which most fans seem to clamour for, is at a cost when playing continental and international teams who keep the ball. I know there are exceptions Arsenal, Swansea etc but in the main this is the culture of English football.
If people want to keep our uniquely entertaining goal fests then maybe we're going have to be conversant in two different styles. Unlike our resistance to speak foreign we're going have to learn to play foreign if we want to get anywhere in a tournament! After all, the foreign players in England play an English style but revert back to the rudimentaries when they play for their countries.
Personally I've always admired teams that play possession football, which is why I have always found watching England so frustrating!
Well done Spain! Truly deserving of the word "awesome"
If we completely change the way kids' football is played over here then maybe we could play like that in 12 - 16 years' time. Note to kids: just watch what Xavi does for an entire game.
Also, well done Italy for their efforts in the rest of the tournament. Definitely the best team after Spain, worthy finalists.
Did it without playing the likes of Villa and Mata as well. Both would walk in to any other international team. Feel sorry for Pirlo though, but it was one step too far for Italy.
pretty emphatic really - they would've won over quite a few people with THAT but not everyone - am STILL seeing griping from critics who claim Spain 'win your brain but not your heart' - I think that's very harsh (how can anyone not like iniesta?) but I can understand it - nobody will ever be as 'romantic' as the brazilian class of 70 & 82 even when they're better. I think it's also because collective brilliance never warms the heart as much as individual sorcery by freaky misfits with wacky haircuts or hot tempers.
English commentators could also learn some Spanish technique:
England: Fabregas...Villa! One-nil! That really was pure class.
Spain: CESC... VAMOS, CESC... VILLA.. ..GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! GOL DE ESPAAAAAÑAAAAAAAA!!!! LA MARAVILLA DE DAVID VILLA!!!! ETC ETC ETC!!!!!!!!!!
pretty emphatic really - they would've won over quite a few people with THAT but not everyone - am STILL seeing griping from critics who claim Spain 'win your brain but not your heart' - I think that's very harsh (how can anyone not like iniesta?) but I can understand it - nobody will ever be as 'romantic' as the brazilian class of 70 & 82 even when they're better. I think it's also because collective brilliance never warms the heart as much as individual sorcery by freaky misfits with wacky haircuts or hot tempers.
Interesting points- perhaps societies with a more "collectivist" mindset (China, Japan etc.) would have the opposite view, whereas in our culture, with its emphasis on the greatness of individual ability, we are less inclined to value or even recognise collective greatness. Perhaps this is another reason why England are so rubbish at football. We fail to realise that part of being a great player means being able to work as a team. On this basis, though, China should be able to produce a world-beating team, so it's more complicated than that.
Personally, I think Spain play amazing football AND have bags of individual greatness, and comments about them being boring are just jealousy. The Mash sum it up well:
“They’ve done this by tediously investing in a long-term strategy of training youth players to focus on technique, ball control and teamwork. Well, anybody could do that, couldn’t they? Obviously England won’t because it’s much more interesting for the fans to watch a constant procession of grinding mediocrity.”
If you compare Spain to previous winners of the world and European cups in the last couple of decades, I think that their style and flair are of a far higher order. The first tournament I can remember was MExico 86, which was all about Maradona really. I can't think of any other tournament winners I've seen who could "win your heart" more than Spain have done in recent years. Normally, finals are tight grind out. France in 98 probably being the exception.
Spain's goals in the final were absolutely brilliant, too, against top quality opposition. The only time England score great goals is when they're playing weaker teams (e.g. v Sweden). I think for English fans to say that Spain (or Barca, or anyone who can pass the ball) are "boring" is actually a form of mental illness. When presented with an example of technical excellence that is so far beyond what England can currently achieve, the reaction is not "How can we improve to get to this level?" but to find some way of criticising it, despite the enormous evidence to the contrary of their criticisms. "Boring" compared to what?! to England?!?! I love the fact that Spain's nimble teamwork completely debunks the English belief in big, strong, fast players, which we've been brought up with. Perhaps this is what irks people so much, I don't know.
English commentators could also learn some Spanish technique:
England: Fabregas...Villa! One-nil! That really was pure class.
Spain: CESC... VAMOS, CESC... VILLA.. ..GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! GOL DE ESPAAAAAÑAAAAAAAA!!!! LA MARAVILLA DE DAVID VILLA!!!! ETC ETC ETC!!!!!!!!!!
Chose to watch in spanish whilst in Mallorca for a fair chunk of the duration purely for the hamminess
English commentators could also learn some Spanish technique:
England: Fabregas...Villa! One-nil! That really was pure class.
Spain: CESC... VAMOS, CESC... VILLA.. ..GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! GOL DE ESPAAAAAÑAAAAAAAA!!!! LA MARAVILLA DE DAVID VILLA!!!! ETC ETC ETC!!!!!!!!!!
No thanks.
__________________
I said just now I thought the whole thing was fantastic, I'll go further than that, it's absolute rubbish
English commentators could also learn some Spanish technique:
England: Fabregas...Villa! One-nil! That really was pure class.
Spain: CESC... VAMOS, CESC... VILLA.. ..GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! GOL DE ESPAAAAAÑAAAAAAAA!!!! LA MARAVILLA DE DAVID VILLA!!!! ETC ETC ETC!!!!!!!!!!
Haha, "Phlegmatic English reserve" v "Excitable Latin temperament". The main problem I see here is that none of our players rhyme with anything good.
I like how Spain won this won. But not too moved that they have to win over Italy on this one.
Personally, it was a toss up between Spain and Italy for me to begin with and so it is not all that good to have them face each other on the final. But there needs to be one winner and Spain made it.
Good job for Alonso and Fernando Alonso for having the same effect for the past couple of weeks.
Long may the impartial party continue, Pavel!
http://soundcloud.com/pavelplastikk
Unlucky Ukraine. Why don't they just introduce goal line technology? It's a no-brainer. Failing that, maybe you get one 'challenge' per half, like they do in tennis, so you can stop the game and ask for a replay? We understand how it feels to be on the wrong end of one of those Pavel. It is not funny.
One out of three ain't bad. Good job I am not a gambling man...
Can we beat Italy?
http://soundcloud.com/twonk
http://soundcloud.com/iamrobd
http://soundcloud.com/pavelplastikk
Maybe he's the problem...
asa
it's the difference between growing your own vegetables and buying them frozen in the supermarket
yes you can can
asa
it's the difference between growing your own vegetables and buying them frozen in the supermarket
Once we win the tournament as spoilers (and we will), a new rule stating 'any team with more than 6 out-field players in their own half automatically concede a penalty', should be introduced to the not so great game.
eeeerrrr - I think not if we play like we did against Ukraine. It was a bit scrappy in places and it seems like we've used all our luck up now for like another 10 years.
I actually think Italy look like the tastier team out of them and Spain at the moment. That may change, but still think zee Germans are gonna win it hands down.
Travelling through the cosmos on the congas
http://soundcloud.com/breaker
http://thedanceelectric.blogspot.com/
I'm just a sucker for a pretty BASS
http://soundcloud.com/pavelplastikk
It might be slightly different now, but I can remember playing right wing for the school aged 10 onwards on a full-size pitch. I didn’t learn much about intricate midfield interplay in a game plan that mainly involved being quicker and / or stronger than the opposition. OK, I could dribble a bit too, I guess. I remember one away game where we actually did play with full-size goals aged 11, so we just kept lobbing it over the 5 foot keeper into the goal, or hitting it towards the corners. Football masterclass. I think the score was 10-8 or something. Scoring directly from crosses was quite common. Still, it made you feel like you were possessed of Le Tissier-esque shooting genius. I didn’t even learn to head the ball properly because I was ordered never to come in more than 10 paces from the touchline unless I was the only person forward in an attack. Total Football it was not.
Would a young Xavi even get into a kids’ team here? (this question reflects on the merits of our youth football, not Xavi). He quite possibly wouldn’t even end up being a professional, as ludicrous as that sounds. His chief ability is one that has no place in our kids’ game, and lacking size, strength, speed or flashy ball skills, he’d probably be overlooked. But he runs things at the highest level.
“Playing to our strengths” as it is termed (i.e. the way we’re conditioned to play as kids) usually gets us beyond the group stages, but as soon as we come up against a team in form that can pass it around we get found out. Whilst it is possible for us to beat a team like Spain (as we did not so long ago), it’s usually as a result of being tight defensively, riding our luck a bit and stealing a goal from a set piece. Although possession isn’t everything (e.g. Holland, despite probably dominating possession in all 3 of their games, were shite in other respects, perhaps Sneijder aside), conceding more that 60% of it is not going to win you games on a regular basis, unless you are very good on the break, which in itself relies upon the other team opening up and over-committing, something that’s not usually going to happen with a well-organised midfield unless they’re chasing the game. The fact that Chelsea beat Barcelona and Bayern, despite being outplayed in both cases, should not be used as a vindication of the approach we are forced to adopt when playing technically better sides. It’s not a long-term strategy.
Not entirely original observations, I know, but worth repeating every time we fail, and every time people start talking about our need for one magical manager or a couple of magical players that will suddenly turn us into world-beaters. Those magical players won’t happen (aside from total one-off geniuses every 20 years or so) whilst we continue with our current development system, and a manager can’t make a team play a kind of football that they have never learnt to play. We also tend to think that an outstanding individual at club level will be able to have the same individual impact on a game at international level (e.g. Rooney), which is both unfair and deluded. Just because EPL teams are full of internationals doesn’t mean that the football played is of international tournament quality, regardless of "entertainment" levels.
Things might be slightly different now to when I was a kid 20-25 years ago, and I truly hope that they are. Not having kids myself, I have no recent experience of kids’ football. There is no reason why a country of 60 million people with a fondness for football cannot produce a world cup winning football team if the right development strategy is pursued
Well done Italy. Good luck against the Germans, who look pretty invincible at the moment.
*edit - despite all the above, England did still manage to score possibly the team goal of the tournament (Welbeck v Sweden), though admittedly against a very poor side.
England luckiest team at the Euro's
Lucky to not get beat by France
Lucky to beat Sweden, basically Walcott won it, Wellbecks goal was a mistake, bounced of his foot.
Lucky to beat Ukraine - cross for the goal bounced off the first man, then off the keeper into Rooney's path
Lucky to not have to get mullered by Germany again
That is our game plan, though. It's not a long-term strategy to win tournaments in the future, however.
Welbeck's goal was the culmination of a fantastic move starting from our own penalty area; regardless of what you might think of the finish (which I feel was intentional), it wasn't luck that put the ball in a position to score from with a backheel. Credit where credit's due.
I agree about the rest, though. I don't think we were bad, we did as well as could be expected.
*edit- oh yeah, in some ways I hope Italy don't win, simply because if they do, it will give people the excuse of saying "But we went out to the eventual winners, so it's not so bad". The English are very good at deluding themselves thus.
Apart from Ashley Cole, that is.
http://soundcloud.com/theghostofsusquehanna
This posts pretty much nails it.
England's deficiency is technical, its tactical & the players were no way near as sharp as the Italians fitness wise. The media/public talk about a shocking performance but when was the last time England produced a dominating display in a EC/WC game beyond the group stages?
Just to endorse your points - The Spanish kids are bought up playing futbol sala (5-aside but with a size 3 ball which is heavier) or 7-aside football on much smaller picthes (usually sand)..the game as a result involves far less space & the need to constantly look to pass/keep possession even if it means going round in circles.
I'd like to see no 11 a-aside allowed in this country until kids are 14/15 but can't see it ever happening. It's cultural. A lot of people can't stand so called tippy tappy & the Premiership with its money & foreign talent is considered the most exciting league in the world coz of the ping pong non stop attacking play - light years away from high level international football.
having had the misfortune of watching my nephew (a short arse), struggle to make his school's b-team and bearing witness to the abuse from other child's parents he received when he lost possession AND the tolerance of this nonsense from teachers, i'm not surprised we're so lily livered and negative in tournaments.
In 1990 we gave Germany a game, whereas now we aren't fit to tie their laces. Our national team and their management are scared and who can blame them as they've been deprived of any collective enjoyment of the game throughout most of their lifetime.
Compare that with what Acid Dave relates... (shouting abuse at someone else's kid is inexcusable, btw, but even hyped-up enthusiasm isn't really conducive to getting kids to play good football). Another key point Dave raises here is that whilst the Spanish kids seemed to be enjoying themselves, we make sport into an ordeal for our children. My memories of playing kids' football (at least the 11-a-side school matches and training) are of joyless fitness drills, not being allowed to wear gloves in winter when it was snowing (despite the fact that my hands turn blue in the cold), hyper hyper competitiveness and win-at-all-costs mentality leading to (as you suggest) a total fear of making a mistake, and hence wanting to get rid of the ball as soon as possible if you were stuck in midfield. You only learn and improve by making mistakes. Ask any musician. People aren't born with genius-level ability, they acquire it through application and making a lot of mistakes along the way. I much preferred playing 5 or 6-a-side with friends (which was generally outside of school on a recreational basis) where I could make more use of my close skills and not worry about the consequences of the odd mistake or being stuck in a specific "role". I ended up hating 11-a-side in comparison. In this country we seem so hung up on making things arduous and unpleasant in the mistaken belief that this is "character building", whereas it in fact makes people lose interest. You need mental strength, but this comes from confidence in your abilities, not from some "bulldog spirit" nonsense. When we talk of sportsmen "breaking the spirit" of the opposition, it's a result of their superior skills, not some deluded self-belief. Anyway, rant over...
All this being the case, I have no real complaints about the England football team or manager as individuals, as they are the product of all the above. We would have lost to Italy no matter which formation, players or tactics we employed; when people focus on these things they merely refuse to engage with the real causes of our team's supposed "underperformance".
The importance of getting the ball in the box asap style which most fans seem to clamour for, is at a cost when playing continental and international teams who keep the ball. I know there are exceptions Arsenal, Swansea etc but in the main this is the culture of English football.
If people want to keep our uniquely entertaining goal fests then maybe we're going have to be conversant in two different styles. Unlike our resistance to speak foreign we're going have to learn to play foreign if we want to get anywhere in a tournament! After all, the foreign players in England play an English style but revert back to the rudimentaries when they play for their countries.
Personally I've always admired teams that play possession football, which is why I have always found watching England so frustrating!
If we completely change the way kids' football is played over here then maybe we could play like that in 12 - 16 years' time. Note to kids: just watch what Xavi does for an entire game.
Also, well done Italy for their efforts in the rest of the tournament. Definitely the best team after Spain, worthy finalists.
only one?
asa
it's the difference between growing your own vegetables and buying them frozen in the supermarket
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England: Fabregas...Villa! One-nil! That really was pure class.
Spain: CESC... VAMOS, CESC... VILLA.. ..GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! GOL DE ESPAAAAAÑAAAAAAAA!!!! LA MARAVILLA DE DAVID VILLA!!!! ETC ETC ETC!!!!!!!!!!
Que te la pique una gallina
Interesting points- perhaps societies with a more "collectivist" mindset (China, Japan etc.) would have the opposite view, whereas in our culture, with its emphasis on the greatness of individual ability, we are less inclined to value or even recognise collective greatness. Perhaps this is another reason why England are so rubbish at football. We fail to realise that part of being a great player means being able to work as a team. On this basis, though, China should be able to produce a world-beating team, so it's more complicated than that.
Personally, I think Spain play amazing football AND have bags of individual greatness, and comments about them being boring are just jealousy. The Mash sum it up well:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/spain-show-boring-inability-to-be-ru...
If you compare Spain to previous winners of the world and European cups in the last couple of decades, I think that their style and flair are of a far higher order. The first tournament I can remember was MExico 86, which was all about Maradona really. I can't think of any other tournament winners I've seen who could "win your heart" more than Spain have done in recent years. Normally, finals are tight grind out. France in 98 probably being the exception.
Spain's goals in the final were absolutely brilliant, too, against top quality opposition. The only time England score great goals is when they're playing weaker teams (e.g. v Sweden). I think for English fans to say that Spain (or Barca, or anyone who can pass the ball) are "boring" is actually a form of mental illness. When presented with an example of technical excellence that is so far beyond what England can currently achieve, the reaction is not "How can we improve to get to this level?" but to find some way of criticising it, despite the enormous evidence to the contrary of their criticisms. "Boring" compared to what?! to England?!?! I love the fact that Spain's nimble teamwork completely debunks the English belief in big, strong, fast players, which we've been brought up with. Perhaps this is what irks people so much, I don't know.
Iniesta is a god. Xavi too.
Chose to watch in spanish whilst in Mallorca for a fair chunk of the duration purely for the hamminess
No thanks.
I said just now I thought the whole thing was fantastic, I'll go further than that, it's absolute rubbish
Haha, "Phlegmatic English reserve" v "Excitable Latin temperament". The main problem I see here is that none of our players rhyme with anything good.
Personally, it was a toss up between Spain and Italy for me to begin with and so it is not all that good to have them face each other on the final. But there needs to be one winner and Spain made it.
Good job for Alonso and Fernando Alonso for having the same effect for the past couple of weeks.
http://soundcloud.com/pavelplastikk